Author Topic: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384  (Read 630 times)

Offline zwiller

  • Falcon Beta Team
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: Sandusky, OH
  • Posts: 830
  • Kudos: 11
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 11:19:55 AM »
Using the wonderful F16v2 this year ... the 50' range was my expectation, based on comments like the one above ... however, my reality (using 3 pin cable) more like 20' and sometimes 25' max ... and perhaps 40-50+' with a modified (+ and - wires combined, single data wire) cat5 cable.  Apparently coax range is incredible, but honestly I can't see many going with coax.

Thanks.  Interesting and one of the first "I am not getting long distance" posts I've seen.  I think the data signal distance is fairly proven, so it's voltage drop.  I am seeing folks talk about using true 18g 3 wire for longer runs.  I plan to test extensively before finally converting hub/ssc to F16 concept but fairly confident I am but not going more than 25'.       
Sam

Last year's video: https://vimeo.com/150560653

Offline taybrynn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Castle Rock, CO
  • Posts: 333
  • Kudos: 8
    • RockinChristmas Facebook Page
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 11:30:50 AM »

Well the batch of 3 pin extensions I got from Ray ... was very poor in terms of quality.  Some don't even have usable threads the molding was so bad.  It was a $300 order of extensions and well, the 10' and 25' cords were particularly bad and irregular.   I don't know what gauge those are using.   Again, didn't know it mattered at the time.  Those 25' 3 pin cords don't seem to work on much for me ... whichout noticible white flickering or other issues.  I had to use these cords ... so I just spend hours trying to fix them with a pocked knife with my Dad ... carving away all the imperfections and trying to get them to work, which most did eventually.


The other thing that could be hurting my range ... is the use of older Ray Wu 3 pin pigtails which are connected to some old SS wire ... which might not be 18 gauge (probably isn't) ... which could be limiting my range, even if the 3 pin was 18 ga ?  Those pigtails were re-used from Zeus controllers, then just plugged in the new extensions into them.   If those pigtails used 22-24ga wire, might be part of my problem?

Yes, to me the ability to program the SSC remotely (with Falcon  uSC SSC programmer)  ... takes away the main disadvantage to using SSC(s). 
However, I still think I'd have to run a temporary cat5 out the window from the USB Lynx pixelnet dongle to that hub (100' away) to reprogram it, since I don't think I could reprogram
it through the E1.31 to F16v2 that then outputs to the DLA active hub.   Or thats not well documented if you can.

What I like besides the distance (and simple unmodified cat5 to each ssc) ... is that you don't have to even think how to plug in the cat5s to the hub (meaning, you just plug them into the hub which is just a big power splitter). 

This means my neighbor can just plug every cat5 into the same hub ... and doesn't have to plug into the right channel or anything, since the programming is already
inside each SSC.  This is handy because my neighbor has limited time to work on the lights and likes to just get-r-done really fast ... and so not having to know which cord plugs in where really helps him go fast.  Then we just keep each SSC attached to the display item, so its basically idiot proof and labeled ... so he installs stuff on the roof, plugs in the cat5(s) to hub ... and is done.

I think the replacement to dla hub+ssc(s) would be the Falcon differential boards ... which similarly give you longer distances using regular cat5 to each differential receiver ... but they need to be powered at each receiver, which is the only downside to me (a minor one) ... and could maybe be an upside also.   However, its controlled via. a F16v2 parent board which is a huge plus.     The only (small) downside is then you have to know which cord plugs into which, but if you get it wrong, its easy enough to change on the F16v2 web interface, which is a huge plus to using the differentials vs. hub+ssc.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 11:42:15 AM by taybrynn »

Offline Tindivall

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Location:
  • Posts: 48
  • Kudos: 0
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 11:42:11 AM »
Another down side is that the differential is 4 strings to 1 board... when doing something like the roofline it might be a bit cubersome/difficult to get your light termination ends to all line up in close enough proximity to get to the differential board.

Offline zwiller

  • Falcon Beta Team
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: Sandusky, OH
  • Posts: 830
  • Kudos: 11
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 12:23:08 PM »

Well the batch of 3 pin extensions I got from Ray ... was very poor in terms of quality.  Some don't even have usable threads the molding was so bad.  It was a $300 order of extensions and well, the 10' and 25' cords were particularly bad and irregular.   I don't know what gauge those are using.   Again, didn't know it mattered at the time.  Those 25' 3 pin cords don't seem to work on much for me ... whichout noticible white flickering or other issues.  I had to use these cords ... so I just spend hours trying to fix them with a pocked knife with my Dad ... carving away all the imperfections and trying to get them to work, which most did eventually.


The other thing that could be hurting my range ... is the use of older Ray Wu 3 pin pigtails which are connected to some old SS wire ... which might not be 18 gauge (probably isn't) ... which could be limiting my range, even if the 3 pin was 18 ga ?  Those pigtails were re-used from Zeus controllers, then just plugged in the new extensions into them.   If those pigtails used 22-24ga wire, might be part of my problem?

Yes, to me the ability to program the SSC remotely (with Falcon  uSC SSC programmer)  ... takes away the main disadvantage to using SSC(s). 
However, I still think I'd have to run a temporary cat5 out the window from the USB Lynx pixelnet dongle to that hub (100' away) to reprogram it, since I don't think I could reprogram
it through the E1.31 to F16v2 that then outputs to the DLA active hub.   Or thats not well documented if you can.

What I like besides the distance (and simple unmodified cat5 to each ssc) ... is that you don't have to even think how to plug in the cat5s to the hub (meaning, you just plug them into the hub which is just a big power splitter). 

This means my neighbor can just plug every cat5 into the same hub ... and doesn't have to plug into the right channel or anything, since the programming is already
inside each SSC.  This is handy because my neighbor has limited time to work on the lights and likes to just get-r-done really fast ... and so not having to know which cord plugs in where really helps him go fast.  Then we just keep each SSC attached to the display item, so its basically idiot proof and labeled ... so he installs stuff on the roof, plugs in the cat5(s) to hub ... and is done.

I think the replacement to dla hub+ssc(s) would be the Falcon differential boards ... which similarly give you longer distances using regular cat5 to each differential receiver ... but they need to be powered at each receiver, which is the only downside to me (a minor one) ... and could maybe be an upside also.   However, its controlled via. a F16v2 parent board which is a huge plus.     The only (small) downside is then you have to know which cord plugs into which, but if you get it wrong, its easy enough to change on the F16v2 web interface, which is a huge plus to using the differentials vs. hub+ssc.

I am with ya on nearly all counts.

I no longer order from Ray.  I am willing to pay a premium to get some stateside QC.  I think it has been proven that the pigtails are not the issue it's the wire.  SS 3 core wire is only 20awg AND it is aluminum so IIRC it's the equivalent of 24avg...  Cat5 should be far superior or 18awg.

No argument the Hub + SSC concept is quick and has it's place and certain advantages.  I am actually scared to death to use the falcon SSC ware because of the program all button.  ;D  My house outline is DLA SSC and has retained programming for nearly 5 years.  That's pretty cool. 

 

Offline taybrynn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Castle Rock, CO
  • Posts: 333
  • Kudos: 8
    • RockinChristmas Facebook Page
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2016, 01:00:54 PM »
Agreed on all counts.

So it seems like that 20ga wire I've attached my pigtails to (for the short range zeus use)  ... is more than likely the reason I can't go more than 20-25 with the 3 core extensions?

What gauge is the 3 core extension wire from Ray?

I agree with you ... if I had to do it all over again ... I'd find some better 3 pin waterproof connectors stateside and pay more for that improved QC.

Of course my entire show is using them so it's unlikely I'll change those at this point.

But anything new, I'd like to know which 3 core cables and extensions you like and available US stateside.

Offline JonB256

  • Supporting Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: Granbury, Texas
  • Posts: 3,278
  • Kudos: 63
    • Granbury Christmas Lights
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2016, 01:15:11 PM »
I have a lot of Ray's 3 core waterproof ends. I've stripped and soldered so many without the problems that Aluminum (cca) would have. Did you get a different type than mine?

Offline zwiller

  • Falcon Beta Team
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: Sandusky, OH
  • Posts: 830
  • Kudos: 11
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2016, 01:47:42 PM »
So it seems like that 20ga wire I've attached my pigtails to (for the short range zeus use)  ... is more than likely the reason I can't go more than 20-25 with the 3 core extensions?

What gauge is the 3 core extension wire from Ray?
Zeus is another beast entirely.  I couldn't even get 10' with Ray's wire...  But, yes, I think the issue you're having is the voltage drop.  I did alot of testing in 2013 (failed show) and that's what I learned.  Lots of factors to consider.  Type of pixel/how many/controller voltage.  They all play a role but in the end I think Ray's/China wire is the weakest link. 

Jon, are you saying your 3 core connectors are copper?  I think they were copper years ago when they were rgb but the new color scheme are aluminum. 

Now that I think about it, I am not exactly sure stateside wire gauge stuff from China is really any better.  Maybe it is, but I do not know for sure.  The main point is no more duds or distorted/out of round crap and less failure rate/return BS with pixels. 


Offline JonB256

  • Supporting Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: Granbury, Texas
  • Posts: 3,278
  • Kudos: 63
    • Granbury Christmas Lights
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2016, 02:32:54 PM »

Jon, are you saying your 3 core connectors are copper?  I think they were copper years ago when they were rgb but the new color scheme are aluminum. 


I'll do a scraping to see if my wires are copper or just CCA. I've had no trouble soldering them, though. My experience with CCA and solder hasn't been good.

Offline jnealand

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Location: Kennesaw, GA
  • Posts: 1,798
  • Kudos: 33
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2016, 03:35:05 PM »
Another down side is that the differential is 4 strings to 1 board... when doing something like the roofline it might be a bit cubersome/difficult to get your light termination ends to all line up in close enough proximity to get to the differential board.

I am using the differential receivers for my arches and snowflakes that hang under them.  They are out by the street.  The F16v2s are under the mega trees which are back by the house.  Granted that everyone is different, but I have lots of things that are grouped in close proximity like med mini trees, large mini trees, arches in the front of the house, arches in the side yard, and snowflakes.
Jim Nealand
Kennesaw, GA
Lynx, Falcon, XL, FPP

Offline jnealand

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Location: Kennesaw, GA
  • Posts: 1,798
  • Kudos: 33
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2016, 03:42:37 PM »
Everything I use has Ray's 3 pin connectors on them.  I have never noticed any CCAwire in any of them.  I ordered some black colored ones this year and they definitely have mold problems from manufacturing., but they work good.  I have a bunch of the 10ft and 5 ft extensions from Ray and a few 15 ft.   I find it easier to make my own extensions from Coax and with the removable plugs on the F16v2s I just go from that connector right to the connector on the strings.  I don't really have single props scattered around my yard in onesies.  If I did I would probably just use a Pi cap and have another remote.

Offline zwiller

  • Falcon Beta Team
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: Sandusky, OH
  • Posts: 830
  • Kudos: 11
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2016, 05:06:45 PM »
I stand corrected!  Just went down to check my extras to satisfy my curiosity and both the 3 core and 4 core connectors are indeed copper.  SORRY.  However, the China 3 wire is most definitely not and there's no way it's near 18awg...  At least the stuff I have.  I have a reel of US 18awg and the comparison is silly.  The real stuff is as thick as the China wire PLUS the insulation. 

Offline esmiller67

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2016
  • Location: Wartrace, TN
  • Posts: 32
  • Kudos: 0
Chinese pigtails
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2017, 11:02:38 AM »
I stand corrected!  Just went down to check my extras to satisfy my curiosity and both the 3 core and 4 core connectors are indeed copper.  SORRY.  However, the China 3 wire is most definitely not and there's no way it's near 18awg...  At least the stuff I have.  I have a reel of US 18awg and the comparison is silly.  The real stuff is as thick as the China wire PLUS the insulation.


I just recieved my China bought pigtails, and the wire on them is AT BEST 22ga.. I am wonderingh if i need to throw these away and buy better quality..


I have heard a number of people say they use Cat5 cable, which is (I think) only 24ga (?) .. anybody used these thin wire pigtails and have they drastically effected your display? Would they work satisfactorily if i installed a NULL PIXEL inline with them in the areas i have to send the signal a longer distance? By longer I mean maye 20-25ft


I have noticed on this long run that if my wires are lying on the ground the arches flicker constantly, but it I raise them up supported on posts I have no problems. I am running 16ga wire for power this run, and cat5 (Using all 8 conductors) for the signal. I tried using 4 & 4 for the signal and ground, but it made no difference. Any suggestions on the cause of this?


Eddie

Eddie - KI4RQK

Offline vipersinu2

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2016
  • Location:
  • Posts: 58
  • Kudos: 0
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2017, 12:55:19 PM »
if you already injecting power  you have + and - at lights. use 1 strand of the cat5 for data. if you twist extra pairs together your creating bridge tap. each wire is twisted differently and has resistance which Impedes the flow of data.

Offline esmiller67

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2016
  • Location: Wartrace, TN
  • Posts: 32
  • Kudos: 0
Re: Changing Equipment / Going Beyond 16384
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2017, 08:47:46 PM »
if you already injecting power  you have + and - at lights. use 1 strand of the cat5 for data. if you twist extra pairs together your creating bridge tap. each wire is twisted differently and has resistance which Impedes the flow of data.

Did not know that appreciate the info.. So if a single strand of cat5 is sufficient, I am guessing these pigtails will not cause any difficulties as long as I am power injecting every 50 pixels anyways?

 

Back to top