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FPP v6 changes related to BeagleBone, PocketBeagle, & Raspberry Pi pixel outputs

Started by CaptainMurdoch, May 19, 2022, 09:53:06 PM

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Mark_M

Quote from: CaptainMurdoch on May 30, 2022, 05:03:11 PMI have probably spent 10-15,000 hours of my time working on this project over the past 9 years and I didn't do it for the money.  I could have made a whole lot more money doing custom programming for those hours,

.
but I chose to work on the project for myself and for the smiles it brings to people's faces when I see kids sitting on top of SUV's parked in front of my house watching the lights blink. 
.
We did not start working on FPP to write code for others to turn around and make money off of while not supporting the project itself and not helping further development. 
Reading over this thread so far, I am seeing a lot mentioned about 'have to continue work on FPP' and 'future development'.

Spending thousands of hours on this open sourced project is great and you did not expect to do it for money, which has been answered in the quote above.

I am comprehending that licencing is because you feel that your work is being taken away and put onto something being sold.
- Fair enough, I agree to that feeling.
Also that licence funding is for the benefit of the program advancing ('future development') rather than yourselves.





I apologise for how blunt this sounds.  To be very clear: You do a tremendous job and I am not implying that you should walk away from the project.
An honest answer please from CaptainMurdoch & dkulp:
Why have you continued to put thousands of hours of work into FPP when you knew people were selling hardware to run with it?


I am on the side line watching this unfold and would like to know your mentality behind why you continue to work on FPP.
2021: 1,384 pixels.

JonB256

Using FPP and xLights is my hobby. I don't write code. I don't even understand much of it, but I always have 4 to 6 instances of FPP running in the house. I keep them running Master Branch because it lets me see where things are headed. I check the FPP Forum here way too often. Did I mention it is a hobby? NONE of this has come as a surprise to me because I have stayed so current with the software. If I were a hardware developer with any intention of making Capes or Hats, I would expect the same level of interest. I'm not part of any developer forum and have never been asked for input about what should or shouldn't be changed in FPP. But still, I keep current and could see EXACTLY where things were headed.

All that said, there are people still running FPP 2.x and FPP 3.x and FPP 4.x. I started with FPP 1.0 and it has been a grand adventure. It's a hobby; pass the popcorn.
Long time Falcon, FPP and xLights user

Kensington Graves

QuoteWhy have you continued to put thousands of hours of work into FPP when you knew people were selling hardware to run with it?

Honestly, does it matter?  They own the intellectual property.  Legally, they are the gods and kings over FPP and anyone who uses it is entirely subject to their whims.  They could continue to support it, or they could delete the codebase tomorrow.  "Open Source" has never meant "freeware," although many have come to expect that.

I enjoy the technical challenge of building a light show, and I enjoy the entertainment value the neighbors get.  Last year I didn't have the motivation to put up lights, but the neighbors kept asking when the lights were going up, so in mid-December I went live.  But irrespective of my motivations, I'd be unhappy if someone else were charging admission to my show, and I'd act to rectify that situation ricky tick.


Poporacer

Quote from: smartalec on May 31, 2022, 03:31:43 AMIn 6 yrs i sold 8 boards @ $50each,
You stated that your boards were $50 for the DIY version? If so, there would be no cost for the user to get a FULL license! So what is the problem?
Quote from: smartalec on May 31, 2022, 03:31:43 AMStill im not told how long this grandfathered license lasts
Have you read all of the announcements?
If to err is human, I am more human than most people.

CaptainMurdoch

Quote from: Mark_M on May 31, 2022, 04:37:10 AMI apologise for how blunt this sounds.  To be very clear: You do a tremendous job and I am not implying that you should walk away from the project.
An honest answer please from CaptainMurdoch & dkulp:
Why have you continued to put thousands of hours of work into FPP when you knew people were selling hardware to run with it?

Most work done on FPP is not directly related to these two channel outputs.  Based on our stats, 75% of FPP instances are not used as a controller, they only used as a player, either a player/master or as a remote player sending data to an external controller.  We spend a huge amount of time coding features which are part of the core of FPP and benefit all users.  I work on the project to help my display and to help others.  I think that maybe a couple hundred people per night average see my display, but I get the joy of knowing that my efforts coding FPP are "seen" by hundreds of thousands of people on all the displays running FPP around the world.  That is a big reason why I do this.  I don't do this so that other people can make money off of my efforts while simultaneously pulling away users/customers who do support FPP development by buying capes which directly benefit developers (ie, the PiCap and Kulp capes).  FPP gets minimal donations compared to the effort the development team (ie, more than just Dan and I) put into the project, this is partially because we have never promoted it.  We have a link at the top of the forum way up there on the right ^^^^ but haven't pushed for donations.  A lot of people have told us recently that they want to donate but couldn't find out how.  This is partially due to the fact that fewer and fewer people actually use the forums these days so a lot never saw the link up there.  So, in FPP v6, we're also adding a donate button in FPP for the 95+% of people running FPP who are not affected at all by this announcement (including the 75% of people who aren't using FPP as a controller).

-
Chris

breese

Being my first year actually doing this hobby I discovered this site and a few others.
After doing a lot of research, asking questions, and watching videos it was a clear choice to use FPP.
I started a plan, made a budget (from my Hobby Only monies), and went to work learning as much as I can (and have a long way to go), taking the advice of others (here and other places), built a list, and started BUYING!
OMG have I been buying.... I have however limited myself to not buying something not in my plans.

Even with my limited budget, in April  (or this month, don't remember) I donated $50 to the site. Sure, its not a lot.
At the same time it shows effort by me to help even a little, sends even a Little THANK YOU to the developers, and I feel well worth the money from my budget.

As a beta tester for a few other projects, I know what these Talented People go through.
I have even given a few programmers a tough time now and again Yet I still respect what they can do and I Cannot....

Whats my point to this Topic???
Read the info supplied by them. If there are questions, they will answer them (proven from all the posts so far).
Understand they they are working hard (not just the coding) to keep this moving forward and make it better than its ever been.
I am Very Sure this has been a Very Hard and long drawn out decision. At the same time it appears that those involved made some clear (and from I see), very simple decisions.

As soon as I know I have the display I planned for This Year completed and there is still money in the budget, I Will Be Donating Again....

"When was the last time you Donated?"




Ugee

I just upgraded one of my Pis to the version 6 beta to test, so far looks pretty good, but missing some of the features from the 5.5 version, I think you already have this set to implement as you progress on this new version.  I also have 4 pcb coming in to build them myself (no resale) and I will apply for the DIY licensing when needed.  I just want to know if the network will work with FPP version 6 and 5.5 on the same network? With like a Player being 6 and the remotes being 5.5.

I also have some Holiday Coro AlphaPix Flex controllers, but from what I can tell it will not affect these controllers.

BTW I use no Hats on my Pis - Colorlight Cards.

Poporacer

Quote from: Ugee on May 31, 2022, 08:08:18 PMbut missing some of the features from the 5.5 version,
What is missing? There shouldn't be anything missing.
Quote from: Ugee on May 31, 2022, 08:08:18 PMI just want to know if the network will work with FPP version 6 and 5.5 on the same network?

Yes it will
If to err is human, I am more human than most people.

CaptainMurdoch

Just for reference, the link below to a github ticket contains a working list of all the other changes which have gone into FPP v6.0 and we are still working on adding/updating/bugfixing as we get closer to the release.

FPP v6.0 ChangeLog

One of our goals for FPP v6 was to focus on stability and if you look at the list of bugfixes, you'll see we spent quite a bit of time tracking down and fixing issues, even dating back to December when some of us were running the master code branch on our production setups and fixing issues as we encountered them.
-
Chris

Mark_M

Quote from: Kensington Graves on May 31, 2022, 07:37:30 AM
QuoteWhy have you continued to put thousands of hours of work into FPP when you knew people were selling hardware to run with it?
Honestly, does it matter?
I do think it does matters for people to understand Chris and Dan's thought process behind making and implementing licencing.

People are are obviously annoyed by this licence implementation. That was basically expected.
Subsequently, People gather judgement on how they feel towards the people who implemented this. We're already seeing this in this thread!

My concerns is the 'Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt ' into what we do not know for future implementations.
If I want to feel comfortable buying or recommending a cape/FPP controller into the future, I want to know more about the people behind this.
I do not know what Chris/Dan might do in the future. Chris/Dan might not even know what decision they would make about this in the future.

2021: 1,384 pixels.

Mark_M

Quote from: CaptainMurdoch on May 31, 2022, 11:48:11 AM
Quote from: Mark_M on May 31, 2022, 04:37:10 AMI apologise for how blunt this sounds.  To be very clear: You do a tremendous job and I am not implying that you should walk away from the project.
An honest answer please from CaptainMurdoch & dkulp:
Why have you continued to put thousands of hours of work into FPP when you knew people were selling hardware to run with it?

Most work done on FPP is not directly related to these two channel outputs.  Based on our stats, 75% of FPP instances are not used as a controller, they only used as a player, either a player/master or as a remote player sending data to an external controller.  We spend a huge amount of time coding features which are part of the core of FPP and benefit all users.  I work on the project to help my display and to help others.  I think that maybe a couple hundred people per night average see my display, but I get the joy of knowing that my efforts coding FPP are "seen" by hundreds of thousands of people on all the displays running FPP around the world.  That is a big reason why I do this.  I don't do this so that other people can make money off of my efforts while simultaneously pulling away users/customers who do support FPP development by buying capes which directly benefit developers (ie, the PiCap and Kulp capes).  FPP gets minimal donations compared to the effort the development team (ie, more than just Dan and I) put into the project, this is partially because we have never promoted it.  We have a link at the top of the forum way up there on the right ^^^^ but haven't pushed for donations.  A lot of people have told us recently that they want to donate but couldn't find out how.  This is partially due to the fact that fewer and fewer people actually use the forums these days so a lot never saw the link up there.  So, in FPP v6, we're also adding a donate button in FPP for the 95+% of people running FPP who are not affected at all by this announcement (including the 75% of people who aren't using FPP as a controller).


Thankyou for replying back Chris.
I am pleased you do all this for the community, and that is including me in the 95% section.


I just have this bug in the background about the future on this. Such as someone influencing your decisions on 'paid' aspects of FPP.
Everyone can vow to/not to an action. But things happen in the future. 
There might be something that Dan and/or yourself think is a great/nessercery idea and implementation backfires.
2021: 1,384 pixels.

Poporacer

Quote from: Mark_M on June 01, 2022, 01:37:54 AMI just have this bug in the background about the future on this. Such as someone influencing your decisions on 'paid' aspects of FPP.
Everyone can vow to/not to an action. But things happen in the future. 
There might be something that Dan and/or yourself think is a great/nessercery idea and implementation backfires.
That is a valid concern, but the same concern can be about xLights or any other free software that is on the market. You can speculate, be worried, etc. but will never know until it happens. We just need to trust the developers with their word, but ultimately it is their choice in the direction things go. 
If to err is human, I am more human than most people.

Mark_M

Quote from: Poporacer on June 01, 2022, 08:41:45 AM
Quote from: Mark_M on June 01, 2022, 01:37:54 AMI just have this bug in the background about the future on this. Such as someone influencing your decisions on 'paid' aspects of FPP.
Everyone can vow to/not to an action. But things happen in the future.
There might be something that Dan and/or yourself think is a great/nessercery idea and implementation backfires.
We just need to trust the developers with their word, but ultimately it is their choice in the direction things go.
True.
But now payment is involved. This has gone past the point of no return.
The gates of what could be paid have opened up.
2021: 1,384 pixels.

CaptainMurdoch

Quote from: Mark_M on June 01, 2022, 01:12:36 AMPeople are are obviously annoyed by this licence implementation. That was basically expected.
Subsequently, People gather judgement on how they feel towards the people who implemented this. We're already seeing this in this thread!

My concerns is the 'Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt ' into what we do not know for future implementations.
If I want to feel comfortable buying or recommending a cape/FPP controller into the future, I want to know more about the people behind this.
I do not know what Chris/Dan might do in the future. Chris/Dan might not even know what decision they would make about this in the future.

I think you need to prefix the word 'people' in some of your statements with the word(s) 'some' or 'a few'.  The people who have been most vocal about the issue have mainly been talking about things they did not fully understand at the time.  The FAQ is pretty clear what is and is not affected by this, including talking about parts of FPP and capes.  It has been stated multiple times that the core of FPP is GPL/LGPL and even if we wanted to, there isn't anything we can do to take that away without getting permission from 10-15 other developers who have had their hands in that code and even then it would only be going forward because old versions of the code are and always will be GPL.  The same is true for the main libfpp.so library, the v5.5 version is GPL, but in FPP v6, libfpp.so is LGPL because we received permission from the group to relicense it to make it more open.  There are other parts of FPP which have only been touched by Dan and I, but we do not have a desire to change things in the player portion of FPP and want to keep it 100% open. This whole issue is about the controller portion of FPP, the part that allows FPP to talk directly to pixels.  The part of FPP that allows it to replace a $250 controller with a physical processor on board to talk to the pixels, and the part of FPP which is helping support the development of the rest of FPP by bringing in some $$ to developers who sell capes using the software.  Some might say that we should have closed-source the controller portion to begin with, but that would have left out all the DIY users which we fully support since we are DIY guys ourselves.

You would have the same concerns or comfort level whether software was open or closed or fully commercial.  Businesses go under, sunset software, raise their prices, remove features, and have the audacity to charge for upgrades. :)  Open Source developers give out free software, free upgrades, free support, but also sometimes move on to other projects or stop just stop developing when they lose interest or run out of time.  If the later part weren't the case, we'd have 15-20 people making regular commits to FPP, but instead we have a small group of a few people who are developing continuing to push the project forward.  There were a few years where my contributions were lower because I had other outside obligations.  Dan stepped in and was the main force keeping FPP going forward during that time when I was unable to devote the same hours to the project that I had been able to in the early days.  In recent years, I have been able to devote more time (normally at the expense of working on my own lighting display).  This is part of the reason we added a 'hit by a bus' clause in the non-GPL licensing to make sure the project can continue if both of us were to go AWOL.

Quote from: Mark_M on June 01, 2022, 01:37:54 AMI just have this bug in the background about the future on this. Such as someone influencing your decisions on 'paid' aspects of FPP.
Everyone can vow to/not to an action. But things happen in the future.
There might be something that Dan and/or yourself think is a great/nessercery idea and implementation backfires.

FPP would be missing some major features if it weren't for "someone influencing" the development of the project.  I have implemented several large features over the years which were privately sponsored by a donation from someone.  I'm not positive, but I think Dan has probably done the same.  That is part of what keeps Open Source going, along with developers scratching their own itches.  There are always tradeoffs, there probably were a few bugs that had to wait a little longer to get fixed because I was working on an enhancement for a particular user, but in the long run FPP and a large number of users benefited due to one users contribution.  I am definitely not saying there is no possibility of some other new paid portion of FPP, and I won't promise anything.  What we can do is reiterate the fact that the core of FPP can not go private due to licensing.  We would also rather keep a consolidated product that might have some paid/enhanced functionality than split the product and spend our time focused on the 'pay' version or having to keep two versions in sync and decide what gets backported to the free version.  In the future, you could potentially see additional new licensed channel outputs if we add support for more pixel protocols or there could be the concept of paid plugins if that made sense.  There are a large number of Open Source projects out there that are in part supported by paid development or paid features.  Just look at Linux in general.  If companies like Redhat, Canonical, etc. were not selling Linux and supporting it, Linux would not be where it is today.  The whole WordPress ecosystem is built on plugins which normally have a free version and a paid enhanced version.

I feel I am repeating myself so I'll stop.  We realize that some users aren't happy with the idea, but we also believe that is a small group since only a small group is truly affected other than requiring a few minutes of their time to request/redeem a voucher.  This belief is based on the stats we get out of the opt-in stats collection that FPP does which includes a sampling of over 9500 FPP instances.  We thought long and hard about our possible options and felt this solution was better than forking the project, or starting to add fully closed-source features, or locking out 3rd party vendors totally.

-
Chris

Ugee

Quote from: Poporacer on May 31, 2022, 09:15:21 PM
Quote from: Ugee on May 31, 2022, 08:08:18 PMbut missing some of the features from the 5.5 version,
What is missing? There shouldn't be anything missing.
Quote from: Ugee on May 31, 2022, 08:08:18 PMI just want to know if the network will work with FPP version 6 and 5.5 on the same network?

Yes it will

Sorry for the subject change.
FPP 5.5 Multisync and upper right status information.

FPP 6 ├četa Multisync not working and the status information is missing. So far does not look like they work together.


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