Falcon Christmas

Other Controllers and Hardware => General Hardware => Topic started by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 10:00:06 AM

Title: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 10:00:06 AM
Can someone recommend or point me in the right direction to read up about these p10 panels and how they work


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Bshaver on January 12, 2016, 10:35:04 AM
search - in the upper right side of this screen for p10.. matrix etc.. you will have LOTS of posts about data to read up on them
Title: Re: P10
Post by: mararunr on January 12, 2016, 01:36:18 PM
I often find myself going back to this one...
http://falconchristmas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2616.msg30227.html#msg30227 (http://falconchristmas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2616.msg30227.html#msg30227)
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 03:09:19 PM
Guess what I'm really trying to find is that I see everyone talking about the falcon Pi player. Running the beagle bone. I'm wanting to see if the falcoln 16v2 is capable of driving the beaglebone black. That way I stay using my same show computer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: rlemery on January 12, 2016, 03:15:48 PM
The beaglebone black or green and the Pi will all run the 16v2. Any one of those along with the Fpp player can replace your show computer.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: P10
Post by: jnealand on January 12, 2016, 03:26:05 PM
Guess what I'm really trying to find is that I see everyone talking about the falcon Pi player. Running the beagle bone. I'm wanting to see if the falcoln 16v2 is capable of driving the beaglebone black. That way I stay using my same show computer

F16v2 is driven by the falcon player which is usually on a Raspberry Pi.  The F16 does not "drive" anything unless you consider that it drives the lights connected to it.  The Falcon Player software is also installed on the Beagle Bone and drives the P10 panels thru an octoscroller cape, but the player on the BB is usually controlled via sync from a player "master" on a RPI.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 03:28:57 PM
So if I'm not using a rasberry Pi. Then I won't be able to use the p10s?  Or can I use xlights or loght o rama on my show computer. With the f16v2 hooked to the network switch coming off Ethernet and the p10 connected to the f16v2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 03:29:51 PM
Or should I say run a beagle bone off the f16v2 with the p10s connect to the beagle Bone or octoscroller


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: jnealand on January 12, 2016, 03:39:37 PM
You need to do a lot more reading.  P10s are not connected to an F16v2.  They are connected to an octoscroller which is connected to a BB and maybe in the future to a RPI.  What is your objection to a RPI, we are talking about a really low cost unit.  $30 for the RPI alone.  For simplicity you can consider the BB as a more powerful RPI, but in effect they are both standalone computers that can drive lights.  And both are controlled by the Falcon Player software which is a limited version of Linux stripped down to be dedicated to running light shows.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 03:45:47 PM
No objection really. Just in a whole new learning curve right now almost like starting over going into the diy e1.31 world. Just don't know if I have time this year to learn to use a Pi. That's more learning on using changing sequences from LOR into xlights then getting into Pi run the show on top of learning to solder these pixels together and getting the f16v2's to work properly just slot to try to take in in one year I guess I'll just stick with the pixels and f16v2 and normal computer this year. And then look into learning how the Pi works with f16vw and beagle and p10s for next year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 03:47:27 PM

You need to do a lot more reading.  P10s are not connected to an F16v2.  They are connected to an octoscroller which is connected to a BB and maybe in the future to a RPI.  What is your objection to a RPI, we are talking about a really low cost unit.  $30 for the RPI alone.  For simplicity you can consider the BB as a more powerful RPI, but in effect they are both standalone computers that can drive lights.  And both are controlled by the Falcon Player software which is a limited version of Linux stripped down to be dedicated to running light shows.
[/quotes So using the beaglebone black to run the p10 panels and the. My actual computer to run the falcoln 16v2. That seems like two different computers and would get complicated to keep the show playing properly I would imagine lol I guess I'm just not wrapping my mind around all of it just yet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 12, 2016, 03:51:18 PM
Yes, you can run a BBB/Octoscroller/P10, like a regular E1.31 device by placing the BBB into Bridge mode.  I think that is what your asking.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 12, 2016, 03:51:29 PM
Or should I say run a beagle bone off the f16v2 with the p10s connect to the beagle Bone or octoscroller

To run the P10 panels, you need either a BeagleBone Black running FPP with an Octoscroller PCB attached, or you can use one of Ron's E1.31 controllers which can have P10 panels attached to it.  If you go the BeagleBone route, you can run your show on the BeagleBone using FPP and control your other E1.31 equipment including a F16 v2.  You could instead run FPP in "bridge" mode and send it E1.31 data from your existing show computer.  This turns FPP and the BeagleBone/Octoscroller into an E1.131 to P10 bridge, similar to Ron's all-hardware solution.

xLights v4 uses the Falcon Player's .fseq file format as it's native file format, so if you convert to run on xLights, then you are converting to the same file format that the Falcon Player (FPP) would use.  Setting the Pi and BBB up are easy, we have users who don't know a thing about them before they get them in the mail and they are up and running in just a few hours.  FPP is that simple....
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 04:01:23 PM

Or should I say run a beagle bone off the f16v2 with the p10s connect to the beagle Bone or octoscroller

To run the P10 panels, you need either a BeagleBone Black running FPP with an Octoscroller PCB attached, or you can use one of Ron's E1.31 controllers which can have P10 panels attached to it.  If you go the BeagleBone route, you can run your show on the BeagleBone using FPP and control your other E1.31 equipment including a F16 v2.  You could instead run FPP in "bridge" mode and send it E1.31 data from your existing show computer.  This turns FPP and the BeagleBone/Octoscroller into an E1.131 to P10 bridge, similar to Ron's all-hardware solution.

xLights v4 uses the Falcon Player's .fseq file format as it's native file format, so if you convert to run on xLights, then you are converting to the same file format that the Falcon Player (FPP) would use.  Setting the Pi and BBB up are easy, we have people users who don't know a thing about them before they get them in the mail and they are up and running in just a few hours.  FPP is that simple....
ok that's making more sense now. So really for ease of simplicity I could off my network switch have one going to the f16v2 running all the pixels. Then have rons controller off another port running the p10s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 12, 2016, 04:37:45 PM
ok that's making more sense now. So really for ease of simplicity I could off my network switch have one going to the f16v2 running all the pixels. Then have rons controller off another port running the p10s.

Yes, if you don't want to use FPP.  You can drive Ron's controller from anything that can send E1.31, including FPP, so if you later decide to switch to using FPP as your show player, you'll still be able to use the same P10 controller.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 12, 2016, 04:43:11 PM

ok that's making more sense now. So really for ease of simplicity I could off my network switch have one going to the f16v2 running all the pixels. Then have rons controller off another port running the p10s.

Yes, if you don't want to use FPP.  You can drive Ron's controller from anything that can send E1.31, including FPP, so if you later decide to switch to using FPP as your show player, you'll still be able to use the same P10 controller.
awesome that helps a lot. What a great group here ove learned a lot  the past two weeks from everyone here.  Where do I find this rons controller


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Phrog30 on January 12, 2016, 05:34:17 PM

ok that's making more sense now. So really for ease of simplicity I could off my network switch have one going to the f16v2 running all the pixels. Then have rons controller off another port running the p10s.

Yes, if you don't want to use FPP.  You can drive Ron's controller from anything that can send E1.31, including FPP, so if you later decide to switch to using FPP as your show player, you'll still be able to use the same P10 controller.
awesome that helps a lot. What a great group here ove learned a lot  the past two weeks from everyone here.  Where do I find this rons controller


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think here.
http://ronsholidaylights.com (http://ronsholidaylights.com)

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: P10
Post by: lwillisjr on January 17, 2016, 06:47:31 PM
This information is very helpful and I have been researching using P10's as well. I am understanding there are a couple of key functions that need to be performed.

The first is to have a device that picks up the DMX information over an E1.31 network. And there are various controller boards to do this. where many controller boards send this as serial information down a defined port....  the P10 panels require a different type interface. And the boards that do this seem to be sort of a serial to parallel type of interface. Ron's controller board has an optional 'matrix interface' that I assume performs this function. But for the BBB this is where the Octoscroller comes into play.

So if my understanding is correct so far..... I have the following questions.

1. Can you use a Raspberry PI in place of the BBB, does the PI also interface to the Octoscroller? I am not familiar with either, just trying to understand all the options.

2. What is the hardware interface to the Octoscroller, I haven't seen this anywhere. I am starting to assume it is a ribbon cable connection to the GPIO pins on the BBB/PI ??
Title: Re: P10
Post by: JonB256 on January 17, 2016, 08:48:59 PM
1. The Octoscroller is BBB specific.

2. The BBB has two long interface sockets for interfacing various capes. The Octoscroller is a cape.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 18, 2016, 06:01:40 AM
What JonB said.
At this time, there is an ability for the Pi to control P10 panels as well, but not nearly as many as what the BBB is capable of doing. There are updates for the Pi libraries which Chris will be looking at incorporating into FPP 2.0, so my guess is that we might see a new Pi cape for matrix panels this year, but only time will tell. For now, the best solution would be a BBB with Octoscroller.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: lwillisjr on January 18, 2016, 06:41:17 AM

Great, that answered my question. Thanks.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 10:25:58 AM
My main thing I'm not getting is. Using the Bbb with octo. How does all this work in conjunction with the rest of your show and stay in sync if Ur using two command stations "bbb for panels, and computer or Pi for falcoln v2s"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Livermore-Dad on January 19, 2016, 10:37:37 AM
My main thing I'm not getting is. Using the Bbb with octo. How does all this work in conjunction with the rest of your show and stay in sync if Ur using two command stations "bbb for panels, and computer or Pi for falcoln v2s"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe what you are missing is the fact that you treat the BBB like a controller, set it in bridge mode and fire off commands to it from the PI?

Tory
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 10:59:16 AM

My main thing I'm not getting is. Using the Bbb with octo. How does all this work in conjunction with the rest of your show and stay in sync if Ur using two command stations "bbb for panels, and computer or Pi for falcoln v2s"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe what you are missing is the fact that you treat the BBB like a controller, set it in bridge mode and fire off commands to it from the PI?

Tory
ok so it just connects with Ethernet to the network switch coming off the pi. Same way the falcolns are connected then. And if I wanted more than 64 panels I could use two bbb'a in bridge mode off the switch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
I was wanting to do something like a 7' tall by 15' wide p10 matrix. To cover my garage door. Maybe I'd be better off using regular 2822 and couple pixel nets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 19, 2016, 11:39:46 AM
I was wanting to do something like a 7' tall by 15' wide p10 matrix. To cover my garage door. Maybe I'd be better off using regular 2822 and couple pixel nets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yowsa! That's about 14x14 p10 matrix, or 196 p10 panels. If you dropped to 14x13, you'd have 182 p10 panels, which you'd control with 3 BBB/Octo setups. Ambitious; Can't wait to see it! :)
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 11:48:30 AM

I was wanting to do something like a 7' tall by 15' wide p10 matrix. To cover my garage door. Maybe I'd be better off using regular 2822 and couple pixel nets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yowsa! That's about 14x14 p10 matrix, or 196 p10 panels. If you dropped to 14x13, you'd have 182 p10 panels, which you'd control with 3 BBB/Octo setups. Ambitious; Can't wait to see it! :)
tah haven't decided yet looking at cost I could use regular 2811 nodes at 1" for 6k oixels or 2" for 3k oixels and be cheaper and less hassle than the p10s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 11:52:18 AM


I was wanting to do something like a 7' tall by 15' wide p10 matrix. To cover my garage door. Maybe I'd be better off using regular 2822 and couple pixel nets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yowsa! That's about 14x14 p10 matrix, or 196 p10 panels. If you dropped to 14x13, you'd have 182 p10 panels, which you'd control with 3 BBB/Octo setups. Ambitious; Can't wait to see it! :)
tah haven't decided yet looking at cost I could use regular 2811 nodes at 1" for 15,000 oixels or 2" for 3700 oixels and be cheaper and less hassle than the p10s. Doesn't seem right the numbers. Because going from 2" to 1" spacing should just double the count but it doesn't work that way


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 19, 2016, 11:55:16 AM
If you change the spacing in one direction it's 2x, but in two directions it's 4x.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: JonB256 on January 19, 2016, 11:55:37 AM

I was wanting to do something like a 7' tall by 15' wide p10 matrix. To cover my garage door. Maybe I'd be better off using regular 2822 and couple pixel nets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yowsa! That's about 14x14 p10 matrix, or 196 p10 panels. If you dropped to 14x13, you'd have 182 p10 panels, which you'd control with 3 BBB/Octo setups. Ambitious; Can't wait to see it! :)
tah haven't decided yet looking at cost I could use regular 2811 nodes at 1" for 6k oixels or 2" for 3k oixels and be cheaper and less hassle than the p10s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have been using a nearly 8ft by 4ft pixel matrix on my garage door for 3 years. 2 inch spacing. WS2811 pixels. 1200 pixels (40 x 30)
It runs from a single Falcon F16v1 controller and a single 12vdc power supply.
It just doesn't get much simpler than that, though perhaps it could be larger!!  I use 10 strings, folding 3 times (in xLights, not the controller)

https://vimeo.com/149528977 (https://vimeo.com/149528977)
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Livermore-Dad on January 19, 2016, 12:06:14 PM

I was wanting to do something like a 7' tall by 15' wide p10 matrix. To cover my garage door. Maybe I'd be better off using regular 2822 and couple pixel nets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yowsa! That's about 14x14 p10 matrix, or 196 p10 panels. If you dropped to 14x13, you'd have 182 p10 panels, which you'd control with 3 BBB/Octo setups. Ambitious; Can't wait to see it! :)
tah haven't decided yet looking at cost I could use regular 2811 nodes at 1" for 6k oixels or 2" for 3k oixels and be cheaper and less hassle than the p10s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have been using a nearly 8ft by 4ft pixel matrix on my garage door for 3 years. 2 inch spacing. WS2811 pixels. 1200 pixels (40 x 30)
It runs from a single Falcon F16v1 controller and a single 12vdc power supply.
It just doesn't get much simpler than that, though perhaps it could be larger!!  I use 10 strings, folding 3 times (in xLights, not the controller)

https://vimeo.com/149528977 (https://vimeo.com/149528977)

What are you running in your windows?

Tory
Title: Re: P10
Post by: JonB256 on January 19, 2016, 12:12:58 PM

What are you running in your windows?

Tory

Those window panels (the ones that are too too bright) are vertical flex strips mounted to Pegboard. They are 22 pixels (strips) wide and 30 pixels high. The old TM1809 style in waterproof sleeves. I had reduced their intensity some, but not enough for the camera. If you were at the Expo in Fort Worth, they were on the wall in the FalconChristmas room.

I went vertical with them because they sag so badly if you go horizontal. At the top, I cut the strips at the 1.5meter point and soldered the three wires over to the next strip. Each panel used 11 outputs from an F16v1 controller.

note - since this is a P10 thread, the small "Tune To" sign between my Tree and the Garage matrix is a 3x3 P10 panel.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 12:16:52 PM


What are you running in your windows?

Tory

Those window panels (the ones that are too too bright) are vertical flex strips mounted to Pegboard. They are 22 pixels (strips) wide and 30 pixels high. The old TM1809 style in waterproof sleeves. I had reduced their intensity some, but not enough for the camera. If you were at the Expo in Fort Worth, they were on the wall in the FalconChristmas room.

I went vertical with them because they sag so badly if you go horizontal. At the top, I cut the strips at the 1.5meter point and soldered the three wires over to the next strip. Each panel used 11 outputs from an F16v1 controller.

note - since this is a P10 thread, the small "Tune To" sign between my Tree and the Garage matrix is a 3x3 P10 panel.
you use the bbb with octo to run the p10s. And do U have it set in bridge mode?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 19, 2016, 12:17:20 PM

I have been using a nearly 8ft by 4ft pixel matrix on my garage door for 3 years. 2 inch spacing. WS2811 pixels. 1200 pixels (40 x 30)
It runs from a single Falcon F16v1 controller and a single 12vdc power supply.
It just doesn't get much simpler than that, though perhaps it could be larger!!  I use 10 strings, folding 3 times (in xLights, not the controller)

https://vimeo.com/149528977 (https://vimeo.com/149528977)

That looks nice.  At 15'x7' and 2" spacing, he'll need more than 3x the pixels over your setup.  Go to 1" spacing and it'll be more than 12x, at which time P10's are cheaper, and offer a resolution of 0.4" spacing.

At the distance in your video, i'd say the 2" spacing looks pretty good, but I guess Aesl will need to figure out the resolution/price he's willing to deal with!  :)
Title: Re: P10
Post by: JonB256 on January 19, 2016, 12:29:58 PM
Do you use the BBB with octo to run the p10s? And do U have it set in bridge mode?


Yes, a BBB and Octoscroller. It was running as a Remote (it had every FSEQ file loaded), not in Bridge mode. I was using wireless back to the RaspberryPi Master, so Bridge mode wouldn't have been a good choice. This was my first year to not have one or more CAT5 cables going out my bedroom window. :)

Note that if I did make a change to an FSEQ file (and I did dozens of time during the month), I only replaced the FSEQ on that BBB if the change affected it. I had one Master and three Remotes. Most changes only needed an update to a single Remote. Since the Master was being used only for Sound and Remote Control, I rarely updated the files on the Master.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 19, 2016, 03:28:14 PM
tah haven't decided yet looking at cost I could use regular 2811 nodes at 1" for 6k oixels or 2" for 3k oixels and be cheaper and less hassle than the p10s.


The maths is quite easy on cost between P10 and 2811 pixels.

At P50 resolution the 2811's are cheaper overall.

At p40 to P30 it becomes a bit of a wash with the 2811's being likely easier

Below P30 you it's actually significantly cheaper to use P10's

Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 03:36:34 PM

tah haven't decided yet looking at cost I could use regular 2811 nodes at 1" for 6k oixels or 2" for 3k oixels and be cheaper and less hassle than the p10s.


The maths is quite easy on cost between P10 and 2811 pixels.

At P50 resolution the 2811's are cheaper overall.

At p40 to P30 it becomes a bit of a wash with the 2811's being likely easier

Below P30 you it's actually significantly cheaper to use P10's
if I built it 7x15 that's close to 200 panes. That's 2grabd alone in panels plus 4 bbb'a and octoscroller so thsts another 400 plus hardware and build materials for weatherproofing were at 3 grand. So if I did 2" spacing on a matrix in at 1100 in oixels and 209 for a controller pigtails and most 200 bucks so I'm at less than 2 grand and at 2" spacing up and down and left to right I think it'll still be dang good resolution


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 19, 2016, 03:40:18 PM
2" spacing = P50 resolution

actually 7x15 will come in at 13 x15 = 182 panels and this requires only 3 bbb/octo

Title: Re: P10
Post by: mararunr on January 19, 2016, 03:46:22 PM
Keep in mind Boscoyo Studio (James) is working on a more cost effective enclosure so finished costs for P10 matrix versus ws2811 will be closer later this year. Agree that costs to finish P10 matrix right now is quite a bit and could out price similar ws2811 setup.  Also need to consider viewing audience distance and what you really need if costs is a determining factor (may not need P10 resolution depending on display to audience distance to get desired results).
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 05:02:13 PM
Yah my poxel tree was 16x50 and 3" spacing and looked great this year. I figured 2 inch on a big matrix wouldn't look bad either. But I'm just happy I don't have to pay 2500 for a oixel tree from LOR anymore lolol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: P10
Post by: uzelessknowledge on January 19, 2016, 05:13:38 PM

2 inch spacing. WS2811 pixels. 1200 pixels (40 x 30)
It runs from a single Falcon F16v1 controller and a single 12vdc power supply.
What size PSU are you running in order to drive 1200 pixels? Can't be a 350w at 29amps.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 05:15:32 PM


2 inch spacing. WS2811 pixels. 1200 pixels (40 x 30)
It runs from a single Falcon F16v1 controller and a single 12vdc power supply.
What size PSU are you running in order to drive 1200 pixels? Can't be a 350w at 29amps.
if it's split across all 16 putouts a 350w should be fine shouldn't it. Each output good for 5 amps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: uzelessknowledge on January 19, 2016, 05:26:11 PM



2 inch spacing. WS2811 pixels. 1200 pixels (40 x 30)
It runs from a single Falcon F16v1 controller and a single 12vdc power supply.
What size PSU are you running in order to drive 1200 pixels? Can't be a 350w at 29amps.
if it's split across all 16 putouts a 350w should be fine shouldn't it. Each output good for 5 amps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The pixels I use are the 12v bullets. They pull 0.55 watts and 0.045 amps per pixel on all white. That would be 660 watts and 54 amps. I would venture other 12v's would be about the same.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: JonB256 on January 19, 2016, 05:31:26 PM
Yes, it is a single 30amp Ray Wu supply. I do not run Full White and have the model set at 70% intensity.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 19, 2016, 06:14:07 PM
Just for comparison.
I run 2024 5b pixels at full white on a 350w power supply.  I've done this for 5 minutes one time as a stress test, but hardly ever achieve 100% white during a normal show.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: uzelessknowledge on January 19, 2016, 06:40:10 PM

Yes, it is a single 30amp Ray Wu supply. I do not run Full White and have the model set at 70% intensity.
Wow. I'm impressed. Rethinking this now. I mean the P10's are sweet, but all in costly. Maybe the weather resistant ones will be good. Them only have to weather proof the back. I just can't imaging putting the money into them.
What to do. What to do.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 19, 2016, 08:50:42 PM

Yes, it is a single 30amp Ray Wu supply. I do not run Full White and have the model set at 70% intensity.
Wow. I'm impressed. Rethinking this now. I mean the P10's are sweet, but all in costly. Maybe the weather resistant ones will be good. Them only have to weather proof the back. I just can't imaging putting the money into them.
What to do. What to do.

I'm just straight out disappointed that again whilst it can be done the experienced hands are promoting very poor practice...... for the sake of $30 and a bit of extra wiring it's suddenly ok to promote the potential overloading of a cheap PSU.

BEST practice is calculate or better measure for full 100% white and load the supply to 80%... pushing to 90% if you really need to.

I wish people who already spend 1000's of dollars on their display wouldn't try and save to last $20/30 on a single psu
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Aesl1982 on January 19, 2016, 08:56:01 PM


Yes, it is a single 30amp Ray Wu supply. I do not run Full White and have the model set at 70% intensity.
Wow. I'm impressed. Rethinking this now. I mean the P10's are sweet, but all in costly. Maybe the weather resistant ones will be good. Them only have to weather proof the back. I just can't imaging putting the money into them.
What to do. What to do.
ive read the fpp doesn't work with the "outdoor" panels


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 19, 2016, 10:48:39 PM

ive read the fpp doesn't work with the "outdoor" panels

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct, as the "outdoor" panels are 1/2 scan rather than 1/8 scan

Also they are called "outdoor" due to the higher brightness not because they are weatherproof, they still require all the same cabinet structure for weatherproofing
Title: Re: P10
Post by: JonB256 on January 20, 2016, 04:49:27 AM
Phil, I have measured my power several ways and am at the 80% safety margin. These pixels do not draw nearly the amount of amperage that their spec sheets state.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 20, 2016, 09:10:43 AM

Yes, it is a single 30amp Ray Wu supply. I do not run Full White and have the model set at 70% intensity.
Wow. I'm impressed. Rethinking this now. I mean the P10's are sweet, but all in costly. Maybe the weather resistant ones will be good. Them only have to weather proof the back. I just can't imaging putting the money into them.
What to do. What to do.

I'm just straight out disappointed that again whilst it can be done the experienced hands are promoting very poor practice...... for the sake of $30 and a bit of extra wiring it's suddenly ok to promote the potential overloading of a cheap PSU.

BEST practice is calculate or better measure for full 100% white and load the supply to 80%... pushing to 90% if you really need to.

I wish people who already spend 1000's of dollars on their display wouldn't try and save to last $20/30 on a single psu

I think the point is; most people don't test or measure.  They add another power supply and have no idea how much margin they have on their PSU's.  That, in my book, is the disappointment.  No one here is saying use only one PSU.  We are sharing our experiences, and if Aesl is going to go thru with making a P10 matrix (or pixel matrix) that is 15ft x 7ft, he has plenty to think about when it comes to how he's going to run and power that size matrix.  Certainly throwing in another $20 PSU to have piece of mind is a good idea, but blindly doing it is another thing.

Example:  I've read lots of posts where users plan to put 100 pixels on each of the 16 outputs of an F16v2.  I've seen many people automatically put two 350W power supplies on that.  My best guess is that using only one power supply, they are likely at about 70-75% current load at full white.  Is having two power supplies really a benefit in a case like this?  Thermal considerations may also outweigh the % current draw on a power supply as well.  Being from AUS i'm sure you're well aware of that.  These are things we need to make newcomers aware of;  the 'why' of why we do things.

I run my 2x2 (~ 2ft x 1ft) P10 matrix at 40% brightness as it gets hard to read 60 ft away due to it being so bright.  JonB only runs his 4ft x 8ft pixel matrix at 70% brightness.  This will be useful information as Aesl moves forward with this build.  I look forward to see what he decides to do.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 20, 2016, 09:15:03 AM

ive read the fpp doesn't work with the "outdoor" panels

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct, as the "outdoor" panels are 1/2 scan rather than 1/8 scan

Also they are called "outdoor" due to the higher brightness not because they are weatherproof, they still require all the same cabinet structure for weatherproofing

P10 'outdoor' is mostly 1/4 scan from what i've seen.

Chris looked into supporting P10 1/4 scan and P6 1/16 scan panels (both use the HUB 75 connector) at one point last year, did that not work out?  Might need to dig out that thread to satisfy my own curiosity...
Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 20, 2016, 09:55:04 AM

P10 'outdoor' is mostly 1/4 scan from what i've seen.

Chris looked into supporting P10 1/4 scan and P6 1/16 scan panels (both use the HUB 75 connector) at one point last year, did that not work out?  Might need to dig out that thread to satisfy my own curiosity...

To answer myself.  I see both 1/2 and 1/4 scan outdoor P10's are available.

I also saw where Chris mentions that only 1/8 P10 will be supported for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 20, 2016, 11:40:33 AM
To answer myself.  I see both 1/2 and 1/4 scan outdoor P10's are available.

I also saw where Chris mentions that only 1/8 P10 will be supported for the foreseeable future.

Supporting 1/2 or 1/4 would require changes in the PRU code that drives the panels and the FPP C++ code to change the layout of the data being sent to the PRU.   I have done a little more research on these and think that in a single refresh these 32x16 panels take 2x as much data or 4x as much data per data line.  The 1/8 scan panels use 3 address lines and refresh 2 lines at a time, sending 16 pixels worth of data in each refresh.  I believe that the 1/4 scan panels use 2 address lines and refresh 4 lines at a time, sending 32 pixels worth of data in each refresh.  If someone has access to some of these and can run some tests, then we could look at support for them in FPP.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: pixelpuppy on January 20, 2016, 12:16:58 PM
To answer myself.  I see both 1/2 and 1/4 scan outdoor P10's are available.

I also saw where Chris mentions that only 1/8 P10 will be supported for the foreseeable future.

Supporting 1/2 or 1/4 would require changes in the PRU code that drives the panels and the FPP C++ code to change the layout of the data being sent to the PRU.   I have done a little more research on these and think that in a single refresh these 32x16 panels take 2x as much data or 4x as much data per data line.  The 1/8 scan panels use 3 address lines and refresh 2 lines at a time, sending 16 pixels worth of data in each refresh.  I believe that the 1/4 scan panels use 2 address lines and refresh 4 lines at a time, sending 32 pixels worth of data in each refresh.  If someone has access to some of these and can run some tests, then we could look at support for them in FPP.
DIYLEDEXPRESS is selling the "outdoor" P10 panels. He doesn't list the scan specs.
http://www.diyledexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=456

Am I reading here that these will not work with FPP?  He is selling individual panels as well as a full kit with BBB, Scroller, power  supply and cables.  I almost bought the full kit, but changed my order to just one outdoor panel for experimentation.  Now I wonder if I just bought a paperweight..

Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 20, 2016, 01:57:10 PM
DIYLEDEXPRESS is selling the "outdoor" P10 panels. He doesn't list the scan specs.
http://www.diyledexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=456

Am I reading here that these will not work with FPP?  He is selling individual panels as well as a full kit with BBB, Scroller, power  supply and cables.  I almost bought the full kit, but changed my order to just one outdoor panel for experimentation.  Now I wonder if I just bought a paperweight..

I am not sure.  I would hope that he had tested one of his kits, but since the full specs aren't available I don't know the specs on these outdoor panels.

I thought I saw someone ask him about these panels and the response was that the only difference was that the outdoor ones were waterproof, but I do not know if he has personally tested them with FPP to make sure the outdoor panels work.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: pixelpuppy on January 20, 2016, 02:34:53 PM
I thought I saw someone ask him about these panels and the response was that the only difference was that the outdoor ones were waterproof, but I do not know if he has personally tested them with FPP to make sure the outdoor panels work.
I saw that too.  But I don't think they specifically asked about scan specs so he *may* have overlooked that.  Its still pre-sale right now and I don't think they've built up any of the full kits yet.  I'm also a bit fuzzy on the scroller he's offering.  I don't think its the original "octoscroller" but rather one of the other clones that have been popping up.  Since there isn't much to the scroller I wasn't too worried about that.  But this recent talk about scan differences between indoor and outdoor really has me wondering about compatibility.

What does all this scan stuff mean anyways?  Is it a reference to scan rate?  What's the difference between a panel with 1/8 scan and one with 1/4 scan?
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 20, 2016, 03:35:07 PM
I thought I saw someone ask him about these panels and the response was that the only difference was that the outdoor ones were waterproof, but I do not know if he has personally tested them with FPP to make sure the outdoor panels work.
I saw that too.  But I don't think they specifically asked about scan specs so he *may* have overlooked that.  Its still pre-sale right now and I don't think they've built up any of the full kits yet.  I'm also a bit fuzzy on the scroller he's offering.  I don't think its the original "octoscroller" but rather one of the other clones that have been popping up.  Since there isn't much to the scroller I wasn't too worried about that.  But this recent talk about scan differences between indoor and outdoor really has me wondering about compatibility.

What does all this scan stuff mean anyways?  Is it a reference to scan rate?  What's the difference between a panel with 1/8 scan and one with 1/4 scan?

The scan rate is what portion of the rows are being refreshed at any given point in time.  The normal 32x16 panels are 1/8 scan which means that 1/8 of the rows (16 * 1/8 = 2) are being refreshed at any given point in time.  The 1/4 scan panels update 1/4 of the rows at the same time.  Since these 1/4 panels are also 16 rows high, that means they update 4 rows at the same time, but they still have the same HUB75 interface as far as I can tell.  That means they must be sending 64 pixels worth of data out each data line instead of 32.  The HUB75 interface only has 2 sets of RGB data outputs.   It looks like each data signal is actually connected to more than one physical line of LED's.  So, the first data line with 64 pixels worth of data could be feeding rows 1 and 5 while the other data line is feeding rows 9 and 13.  Then the address lines change and data1 is feeding rows 2 and 6 and data2 is feeding 10 and 14, etc..

I believe I have seen posts saying that the scroller is "their version of the octoscroller", so they may have taken the schematic and board files and changed the silk screening or layout slightly.  There aren't any pictures on the site I believe.  I know it's a presale, but most vendors sample items before offering them up for sale to thousands of customers, that is why I said I would hope that he tested one of his kits before putting together a kit of BBB, *scroller, and P10 panels, especially since P10 is just the size, it doesn't specify that the panel uses the HUB75 interface or 1/8 scan.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 20, 2016, 04:08:12 PM
@ Jon and Gadget,

I'm not saying do it blindly or without measuring, I'm among the measure your pixel strings to see what they actually draw, I mapped out the current draw for P10's based on different brightness levels.

Maybe I misinterpreted uselessknowledge's reply but I stand by my statement it's poor practice to calculate current draw requirements based on a % brightness number that you use, but for all means show how it can be managed.

For two years I ran my entire show at 60% master brightness then swapped software back to Vixen that had no control and was forced back to 100%, glad I allowed for 100% in the first place.

@Everyone.... has anyone got a "outdoor" panel and can confirm if there is any weatherproofing? All the photo's would indicate zero weatherproofing and it's just the brightness level that is greater to allow them to be used in full sunlight.

Title: Re: P10
Post by: uzelessknowledge on January 20, 2016, 04:14:05 PM

@ Jon and Gadget,

I'm not saying do it blindly or without measuring, I'm among the measure your pixel strings to see what they actually draw, I mapped out the current draw for P10's based on different brightness levels.

Maybe I misinterpreted uselessknowledge's reply but I stand by my statement it's poor practice to calculate current draw requirements based on a % brightness number that you use, but for all means show how it can be managed.

For two years I ran my entire show at 60% master brightness then swapped software back to Vixen that had no control and was forced back to 100%, glad I allowed for 100% in the first place.

@Everyone.... has anyone got a "outdoor" panel and can confirm if there is any weatherproofing? All the photo's would indicate zero weatherproofing and it's just the brightness level that is greater to allow them to be used in full sunlight.
Hey Phil. I was not referring to p10's as Jon said he ran 1200 pixels from a f16v2.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 20, 2016, 04:43:10 PM
Hey Phil. I was not referring to p10's as Jon said he ran 1200 pixels from a f16v2.

All good :)

Interestingly though from another post by Gadget where he has measured 2.9A for 50 nodes, 1200 nodes would be 70A of current for 1200 nodes, three psu's at 12v or two at 5v.

Title: Re: P10
Post by: gadgetsmith on January 20, 2016, 06:57:56 PM
Hey Phil. I was not referring to p10's as Jon said he ran 1200 pixels from a f16v2.

All good :)

Interestingly though from another post by Gadget where he has measured 2.9A for 50 nodes, 1200 nodes would be 70A of current for 1200 nodes, three psu's at 12v or two at 5v.
Those are Technicolor pixels, not the bullet style being used in his pixel matrix. I was confirming what he said in that the Technicolor pixels require more power than the bullet nodes.

To further muddy the waters... a single string of 50 12vbullet nodes draws 2.0 amps, so you might think that connecting two strings of 50 together to make a string of 100 would mean it will draw 4.0 amps... but it doesn't, likely due to voltage drop within the string itself. I'll report some findings soon, but don't want to derail this thread any further.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 20, 2016, 08:18:15 PM
@Everyone.... has anyone got a "outdoor" panel and can confirm if there is any weatherproofing? All the photo's would indicate zero weatherproofing and it's just the brightness level that is greater to allow them to be used in full sunlight.

I know it's just anecdotal and not the answer to your question, but I wanted to mention that I was looking at some outdoor P10 panels today while researching the scan rate and I found some panels that actually had the gasket on the back side of the panel, so the front _appeared_ to be sealed somehow and when the panel was mounted, it would compress the gasket to the enclosure and seal it.

@ThatSameEveryone, if you do have an outdoor panel that is not 1/8 scan rate and still says HUB75 on it, can you do a little testing so we can try to get the 1/2 and 1/4 scan rates supported in FPP this year?  :)
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 20, 2016, 08:37:15 PM
To further muddy the waters... a single string of 50 12vbullet nodes draws 2.0 amps, so you might think that connecting two strings of 50 together to make a string of 100 would mean it will draw 4.0 amps... but it doesn't, likely due to voltage drop within the string itself. I'll report some findings soon, but don't want to derail this thread any further.
why don't we start a new thread with a post for each person to add in actual measurements, I have a bunch, and yes your right, voltage drop will change the total draw, also the red/green/blue readings will always add up higher than white.

 
Title: Re: P10
Post by: AussiePhil on January 20, 2016, 08:40:07 PM
I know it's just anecdotal and not the answer to your question, but I wanted to mention that I was looking at some outdoor P10 panels today while researching the scan rate and I found some panels that actually had the gasket on the back side of the panel, so the front _appeared_ to be sealed somehow and when the panel was mounted, it would compress the gasket to the enclosure and seal it.

If they don't also have a corresponding gasket on all four sides you still need to cover the front as we do for indoor panels as water will go between the panels
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 20, 2016, 09:25:15 PM

If they don't also have a corresponding gasket on all four sides you still need to cover the front as we do for indoor panels as water will go between the panels

I think that by design water was allowed between the panels but the gasket around the border of the back side kept water from going behind where the exposed electronics were.

I didn't see an enclosure but what I pictured it would look like was a flat front surface almost like a solid piece of sheet metal with rectangular 280mm by 120mm holes cut into it with 6-8 screw holes lining the outside of the hole.  A panel would cover a hole and the gasket on the back of a panel would sit just outside the hole and  be pressed against the metal by the mounting screws tightening.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: Nathlthdude on January 20, 2016, 11:43:36 PM
I thought I saw someone ask him about these panels and the response was that the only difference was that the outdoor ones were waterproof, but I do not know if he has personally tested them with FPP to make sure the outdoor panels work.
I saw that too.  But I don't think they specifically asked about scan specs so he *may* have overlooked that.  Its still pre-sale right now and I don't think they've built up any of the full kits yet.  I'm also a bit fuzzy on the scroller he's offering.  I don't think its the original "octoscroller" but rather one of the other clones that have been popping up.  Since there isn't much to the scroller I wasn't too worried about that.  But this recent talk about scan differences between indoor and outdoor really has me wondering about compatibility.

What does all this scan stuff mean anyways?  Is it a reference to scan rate?  What's the difference between a panel with 1/8 scan and one with 1/4 scan?

According to the email I received from Todd (diyledexpress.com) the other day, they're both 1/2 wave
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 22, 2016, 11:27:20 PM
According to the email I received from Todd (diyledexpress.com) the other day, they're both 1/2 wave

I just sent a message to Todd so that we can get this cleared up.  I will update the thread once I receive information from him concerning the scan rate on the panels.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: pixelpuppy on January 28, 2016, 08:11:47 AM
According to the email I received from Todd (diyledexpress.com) the other day, they're both 1/2 wave

I just sent a message to Todd so that we can get this cleared up.  I will update the thread once I receive information from him concerning the scan rate on the panels.
DIYLEDEXPRESS is selling the "outdoor" P10 panels. He doesn't list the scan specs.
http://www.diyledexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=456

Am I reading here that these will not work with FPP?  He is selling individual panels as well as a full kit with BBB, Scroller, power  supply and cables.  I almost bought the full kit, but changed my order to just one outdoor panel for experimentation.  Now I wonder if I just bought a paperweight..

I am not sure.  I would hope that he had tested one of his kits, but since the full specs aren't available I don't know the specs on these outdoor panels.

I thought I saw someone ask him about these panels and the response was that the only difference was that the outdoor ones were waterproof, but I do not know if he has personally tested them with FPP to make sure the outdoor panels work.

Just a follow-up:

It turns out the outdoor panels are not 1/8 scan and therefore they have been removed from the DIYledexpress pre-sale.  Todd is emailing people to cancel or change orders to indoor panels.

[edited typo]
Title: Re: P10
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on January 28, 2016, 08:22:07 AM
I think you missed a "not" in that sentence, they are not 1/8 scan.

I saw Todd's post on another site and a user forwarded me a copy of the email that was sent out to people who ordered the outdoor panels.

I sent Todd a message asking if he has any of the outdoor panels on hand and if they are still HUB75 and if so could I borrow/get one to look at adding support to FPP for the scan rate these panels use.
Title: Re: P10
Post by: pixelpuppy on January 28, 2016, 08:30:06 AM
I think you missed a "not" in that sentence, they are not 1/8 scan.
yes you are right.  I had it in my head but I typed it in wrong.  :-[   thanks for catching that, I have edited the initial post as to not confuse future readers.