Falcon Christmas

Other Controllers and Hardware => General Hardware => Topic started by: JonB256 on May 16, 2016, 12:50:35 PM

Title: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 16, 2016, 12:50:35 PM
I have parts ordered so still planning construction.

I am making two, tall P10 panels. They will each cover a brick column on either side of my garage. Dimensions of 1.5ft wide, 6ft tall. This is a 3x6 array with the panels mounted vertically. Looks great when modeled in xlights.

But, I'd like to have virtually no frame around them. The reason would be so that at other times, I could actually put them next to each other, horizontally or vertically, to make a single panel.  Having a minimal frame would be similar to "Video Walls" where the screen bezels are so thin that you don't really notice the gap.

Looking at the P10 panel, it has a very robust plastic frame around it. Using a long band of aluminum (about 18ft perimeter), I could cover the front with heavy clear plastic for waterproofing, then go around the edge, drilling small pilot holes for self-tapping screws. The screws would really just be holding the aluminum band securely. Then, in the back, I'd go around the inside with 1x1 wood and screws. That frame would then accept a sheet of plywood to close the back and provide a lot more strength to the assembly.

This is all "in my head" planning at this point but would appreciate any prior experience (success and failure). I used to brainstorm these things at work with a few mechanical engineers but I retired and they didn't. :(
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on May 16, 2016, 03:23:58 PM
Attached is quick drawing of an idea I had for this.  It is definitely not to scale, but it gets the idea across I think.

If you use the two end mounting holes in a P10 panel they are further away from the edge of the panel, so you can have the U-channel 'inside' the frame so the P10 panel hangs over the frame flush with the outside edge.  At the top/bottom, you could use a thinner piece of frame material to give room for one first/last strip of U-channel to secure the outside edges of the top/bottom panels.  The waterproof cover would then lay over this all.

This is similar to what I did for my frames but the frame is large enough to fit ouside the panels and the U-channel is set futher back in so the P10 panels are flush with the front of the wooden frame.  I don't need waterproofing since my matrices will be indoors sitting in windows in the front of the house.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 16, 2016, 04:42:06 PM
Captain, that is similar to the way I've seen the waterproof (front side) P10 panels framed.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: MyKroFt on May 16, 2016, 08:17:44 PM
what about these?

http://www.boscoyostudio.com/products/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=36_43

Tony

Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 16, 2016, 08:28:56 PM
I have those. I'm looking at ways to hold the perimeter without a bulky frame.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: stallionent on May 16, 2016, 08:57:06 PM
Maybe use 3/4" aluminum "L" available at Home Depot or Lowe's very light weight.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 17, 2016, 05:17:45 AM
Maybe use 3/4" aluminum "L" available at Home Depot or Lowe's very light weight.
I am thinking about this way, also.
Then I would only need the X connectors from Boscoyo.

As I picture this in my head, I would have the upright of the angle aluminum toward the inside of the frame. Then, I could make four sides that bolt to the aluminum to make a box. To weatherproof, I could then use black duct tape to seal it.

Progress report - pursuing this method on a 3x3 panel I had not built a frame for (yet).
Went to Lowes and looked at angle aluminum - the 1/2" was 36" long and matches the width of the P10 frame.
Also, bought a 1/4 sheet of plywood (24" by 48" by 1/2" thick). The thickness will fit into the 1/2" angle for a very flush fit.

I had Boscoyo connectors on the 3x3 already so I had to remove all the outer connectors. Doing this, you would only need the X connectors. In my case, it would just be four of them. The aluminum will brace the outside edges. I just need to drill some well placed holes. (Measure twice, drill once)

Will add pictures soon. Might make it clearer.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 17, 2016, 12:58:29 PM
The sun is so bright it is hard to see, but work progresses.

I now have a full perimeter of the angled aluminum mounted.

The space left around the outside is the same as the 1/2" plywood that I'm about to rip into 6" wide strips. My Father's Day table saw is going to be useful.  Because of the protruding screws, I'll have to drill small recess holes to match into the edge to get a clean fit.

Still trying to decide if I want to do a 45degree miter in each corner or just a simple butt joint. I know which is easier. :)

The aluminum has made the panel very rigid. Perhaps a bit more than the Boscoyo pieces, but they were pretty good.
The eagle eye viewer may notice that my older P10 panels did not have a many brass inserts as the new one have. Only one in the middle of the long side instead of three.

One thing I will say about this method - I will have to power up and burn in any panels before full assembly because taking it apart to replace a panel is not going to be quick. Not terribly hard, just not quick.

Update - sides are cut but a thunderstorm approaches.
 Tomorrow!
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: markrvp on May 18, 2016, 04:34:33 AM
Looking good Jon!  I'm excited to see these on your house.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: CaptainMurdoch on May 18, 2016, 10:26:11 AM
Very nice...
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 18, 2016, 01:10:44 PM
Raining today. Not getting anything done. Sad face.  :(
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 21, 2016, 12:20:14 PM
The weather improved (no rain) but a lot warmer.

First picture - attached the TOP piece to the angle aluminum. Because the screws going into the brass inserts stick up, I had to drill holes into the bottom of the wood to allow it to be a flush fit.

Second picture - still just the TOP piece but from the outside showing the flat head, phillips screws used to mount the wood.

Third picture. Three side on.  I did go with "butt" cuts. The two side pieces go all the way to the bottom (i.e., the bottom piece will fit inside the two sides). I did that to perhaps make it more drip proof / waterproof. May not really make a difference.

Fourth picture - standing up. Sitting very square and solid. I used 6 inch sides for stability. It gives a huge volume inside the frame but remember I plan to stack another one on top of this one, so a wide base is important. Air volume is good for cooling, I'd think.

Fifth picture - the back is still open. The plan is a sheet of thin plywood, gasketed and screwed to the back.

I will screw the four side butt joints together with small drywall screws. I don't plan to glue them, but may coat the contact surface with rubber cement. That way they can come apart if I need to disassemble for repair.

The exposed P10 panels on the front will remain exposed if used indoors. If outdoors, I will cover with plastic sheeting and tape. I'm hesitant to use Duct Tape because of the residue. May experiment with painter's edging tape since they are formulated to keep out paint (water). Suggestions here would be welcome.

I used wood because it is easy. :)  You could use the PVC planks if you wanted. My wood will get primed and painted for weather resistance. We'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: Aesl1982 on May 21, 2016, 05:14:40 PM
What is ur plan to weatherproof the front


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Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: algerdes on May 21, 2016, 05:28:20 PM
.... The exposed P10 panels on the front will remain exposed if used indoors. If outdoors, I will cover with plastic sheeting and tape. ....
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: jnealand on May 22, 2016, 10:50:13 AM
I just bought a clear shower curtain from Walmart for $5.  Going to try that for the front of my 4x4 matrix.  It is 70" x 71".  Does not say how thick, but it appears to be plenty clear enough.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 22, 2016, 12:04:37 PM
I just bought a clear shower curtain from Walmart for $5.  Going to try that for the front of my 4x4 matrix.  It is 70" x 71".  Does not say how thick, but it appears to be plenty clear enough.
Exactly! You could cut several covers out of that.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 23, 2016, 10:20:23 AM
and now, the software side of multiple panels.

With one Frameless 3x3 panel built (but not wired quite yet), I moved on to how will I display something cohesive on multiple panels.

The answer in xLights is Model Groups. Attached you will find my setup for four identical 3x3 panels, stacked Top Left, Top Right, Bottom Left and Bottom Right.  That ends up making a 6x6 matrix that would be about 6.5 feet wide and 3.25 feet tall. Pretty good size. Because it would be four smaller modules, you can imagine it being a LOT easier to transport. Setup would involve stacking, securing them together and plug in. Since each would be driven by their very own BBB/Octoscroller or RasPi Matrix Hat, they would each have the same FSEQ file and would only display "their" section of channels. They will be kept in sync, within one frame, by the FPP Multisync protocol. To get audio output, you will need a Fifth FPP as master and then Four Remotes since audio is disabled when driving P10 panels.

Anyway, I modeled this up pretty quickly today. Four identical models with non-overlapping channels. This 6x6 display takes a full 108 Universes of channels. Using a 2 minute MP4 file, xLights got both audio and video from the same file.

Create a new folder and put the rgbeffects file in it (I called mine Four P10s) and see how it works. (note - I deliberately left a tiny, single pixel line between panels. You can move them closer to remove it)

Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on May 23, 2016, 10:34:34 AM
The MP4 file that I used for testing is linked here to my Google Drive. Hopefully you can download (it is just over 100mb). I call it Frozen Thriller because it is the characters from the movie, Frozen, dancing to part of Michael Jackson's Thriller. Unknown copyright concerns. I got it from a friend of a friend of a friend. :(

For this instance, add just the Model Group in the sequencing window. Don't bother with the individual models. The finished FSEQ file is only slightly larger than the original MP4 and has great resolution on a 6x6 P10 display.  Anyone going with an 8x8 would be even better, of course. (1,728 universes needed for an 8x8)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3iI74ULigJiZlRfSExRcV93c0E/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3iI74ULigJiZlRfSExRcV93c0E/view?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on December 19, 2016, 06:47:13 AM
Weather proofing the frameless P10 panels.

I did finally get around to building two more frameless panels. They are both 18 panels, 3x6, but assembled and mounted to be Tall and Skinny (6ft tall, 1.5ft wide, approx). My build leaves the front of the P10s totally exposed to the elements, so to put them outside I needed "something" to weatherproof them.

That something came from WalMart. It is a heavy gauge vinyl, about $4 per yard, and is super clear and flexible. I used the same covering technique that I use to wrap Christmas Presents, using Gorilla brand Duct Tape instead of Scotch tape. While they have yet to live through a huge downpour of rain, they have been dew covered and frost covered several times. It took about 5 yards to cover both panels.

Since they are wireless (RasPi 3), the only wire exiting the enclosure is a power cord. As described earlier, my intent is to be able to stack these in larger arrays (these two could sit, side by side, and make a 6ft tall, 3ft wide display). When Grouped into the larger display by xLights, they synchronize very well. Or set one on top of the other and get 3ft tall by 6ft wide. Or put them end to end and get a 12ft long marquee. Since they have no "frame" there is virtually no gap between the panels.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: Phrog30 on December 19, 2016, 06:57:45 AM
I use clear vinyl as well. It works great. And like you said, very cheap compared to other materials.

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Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: tonyhight on December 30, 2016, 08:36:01 AM
Weather proofing the frameless P10 panels.

I did finally get around to building two more frameless panels. They are both 18 panels, 3x6, but assembled and mounted to be Tall and Skinny (6ft tall, 1.5ft wide, approx). My build leaves the front of the P10s totally exposed to the elements, so to put them outside I needed "something" to weatherproof them.

That something came from WalMart. It is a heavy gauge vinyl, about $4 per yard, and is super clear and flexible. I used the same covering technique that I use to wrap Christmas Presents, using Gorilla brand Duct Tape instead of Scotch tape. While they have yet to live through a huge downpour of rain, they have been dew covered and frost covered several times. It took about 5 yards to cover both panels.

Since they are wireless (RasPi 3), the only wire exiting the enclosure is a power cord. As described earlier, my intent is to be able to stack these in larger arrays (these two could sit, side by side, and make a 6ft tall, 3ft wide display). When Grouped into the larger display by xLights, they synchronize very well. Or set one on top of the other and get 3ft tall by 6ft wide. Or put them end to end and get a 12ft long marquee. Since they have no "frame" there is virtually no gap between the panels.
This is great and giving me some ideas for mine this year. Can you post a pic of the final weatherproofed? Curious how it looks using the vinyl.

Tony Hight
http://www.hightfantasylights.com
http://www.Facebook.com/hightfantasylights

Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on December 30, 2016, 07:02:31 PM
These stand on the driveway, held in place by the aluminum wire.

The black duct tape seals the overlapping edges very well. As I said, they are wrapped like Christmas gifts.

A good, waterproof clear tape would probably look nicer. I had black Gorilla Tape.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161231/993e55121b3ffcb5b14588c90e69ff3e.jpg)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161231/1f9d0a2e06c02f6e327dcf344b31992c.jpg)
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: steve hughes on December 31, 2016, 05:45:38 AM
JonB ~ where is this "vinyl" hidden at the Walmart? or at least what section of the store? I can find clear shower curtain but not anything like you are talking about and I am seeing in your pictures/// Of course I will say that our "superWalmart" is in a small East Texas town (Jacksonville) so in comparison, it is probably smaller than yall's regular old fashioned Walmarts! :)
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on December 31, 2016, 05:48:59 AM
At my SuperDuperWalMart, it was in the Fabric section on horizontal rolls in a rack of 4 or 5 rolls of different textures and thicknesses of vinyl.
If your WalMart doesn't have a Fabric section, then you may be out of luck. Not all do, anymore. :(
(and I'm also in a small, Texas town, just south of FW)
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: steve hughes on December 31, 2016, 06:34:42 PM
thanks! it's back to the walmart we go!!
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on January 11, 2017, 05:14:37 AM
Steve, ever find the vinyl ?
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: arw01 on January 11, 2017, 10:00:40 AM
In the cold snap did you ever have an issue with condensation on the inside?

I had picked up some of that window winterization shrink film to do mine, but the matrix never made it out of the basement.
Title: Re: "Frameless" P10 panels
Post by: JonB256 on January 11, 2017, 01:35:35 PM
In the cold snap did you ever have an issue with condensation on the inside?


I did get some very light condensation inside the vinyl next to the wood, not on the front over the panels or the rear. This was within a week of sealing them. After a week, I haven't seen it re-occur. This morning I had heavy dew on the outside but nothing on the inside.

As far as water tightness and moisture tightness, we haven't had a lot of rain this lighting season. I considered putting "Bud Industries" vents on top and bottom to allow some air circulation. They have an O-ring seal and can be rotated to keep their opening "down" if I change the panel orientation.